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Our opinions and advice to the world. Updated whenever we get around to it.

2 Years

Democracy In Iraq gives us his thoughts two years after Saddam was removed from power:
Before March 20, 2003, we were in a dungeon. We did not see the light. Saddam Hussain was crushing Iraq's spirit slowly, we longed for his end, but knew we could not challenge him, or his diabolical seed who would no doubt follow him and continue his generation of hell on Earth.

Since then, we now have hope. Hope is not a tangible thing, but it is something, it is more than being blinded by darkness, by being stuck in a mental pit without any future.

Hope has been the greatest product of the last two years. No doubt, many have died, many have died by accident or due to crimes. But their sacrifices are not, and will not be for nothing. I refuse to let it be, and my countrymen stand with me.

Our cities are smoking, our graveyards full, and terrorists in our midst. But we are not defeated. We are not down, we are not regretful. We are not going to surrender. For all that the two years have brought, the greatest thign they have given us is a future, and a view of the finish line.
Wasn't all this about oil or something like that? He must be talking about a different Iraq.

[Via Instapundit]

23 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thats great I am really glad to help him and to think it only cost over 1500 lives over 10,000 wounded and $300 bilion and no end in sight. What a bargian. Can you say W.M.D. Well at least we have massive debt and a falling dollar and the one responsible for 9/11 is still out there but at least we captured a two bit dictator that had a army with 30 year old tank and no air power.what a threat.

Dana said...

Your compassion is overwhelming.

Anonymous said...

It actually is but if you think the war was out of the goodness of our heart well I can only say thats not how it was sold and the reason will change AGIAN, soon enough. Meanwhile more blood and money out of our pockets into large multi nationals pocket.

Anonymous said...

Sorry I forgot this. War is a huge money maker for many companies.and we will be there as long as there is fighting and the fighting will go on as long as we are there. Sad but true.

Dana said...

So your position is that the war only occured because of US business interests. Well I guess that is fair enough if you think so. So then was Clinton's actions in Bosnia based on business interests? Since France, Russia, and Germany had close business ties to Saddam's regime was their opposition to the war only due to business interests? Does your world revolve around your fear of corporations?

And if you want to jump all over the WMD thing then fine. But the fact still remains that no one before the war held the position that Saddam did not have WMD. None. Zippo. Reinvent the past all you want but that is reality. Out of all the protests against the war not once did I see anyone with a poster claiming that Saddam didn't have WMD. As well not once did I hear any of the protestors make a similar claim.

But hey since all of the other reasons to oppose the war have turned out to be wrong you might as well stick to WMD. Good luck with it.

And as far as your compassion goes... I'm sure the families of the 500,000 found in mass graves will be very grateful.

Anonymous said...

You are right about one thing everyone thought he had WMD including me, but even I knew and the rest of the world knew he was not all of a sudden a threat.For over 12 years we had him contained and had UN inspectors(til 98 and for only 3 months before the war)in there so he could do nothing to us. As far as the mass graves they are all from the 80s and the war with Iran(we helped, Supported and supplied the chemicals and to put down insurections after the first gulf war)we had no problem with it at the time but a deacade or more later we find our heart? Saddam was a brutal dicator that held on to power any way possible and again we had no problem with that at the time. And no it was not for purely business there is also protection for Isreal(Paul Wolfawitz shopped the same war plan to Isreal 5 years before we did it but Isreal did not go for it)and yes there is the oil aspect again it is not the only reason to go in money and power will be why we stay.

Anonymous said...

And Clinton in Bosnia. He stopped a genocide, we did not lose one life and by the way we did not take over the country handing out billions to U.S contractors. Frankly that should be a model of how to handle a situation like that but it is apples and oranges comparing Bosnia to the situation in Iraq.
You say "But hey since all of the other reasons to oppose the war have turned out to be wrong you might as well stick to WMD" do you mean like (WMD) and ties to 9/11 and Bin Laden no that cant be what you mean because those were the exact reasons they gave to go to war. If you are thinking of some other reason please explain.

Anonymous said...

Life In Bagdad Life is good http://thoughts04.blogspot.com/

Anonymous said...

http://thoughts04.blogspot.com/

Dana said...

As far as I'm concerned if you were simply an isolationist then that would be fine. As a position it is legitimate. I wouldn't fall under that category but it is a legitimate belief system. Unfortunately your positions are all twisted.

So you opposed the Iraq war because companies benefit. Did they not benefit during Bosnia or did you personally donate funds to purchase the cruise missles? You also preferred that the sancions continue and that the no fly zones be enforced. Once again who supplied the missles and fuel for that? If you were for those isn't it a bit inconsistant to use that reason to oppose the war itself?

You also want to say that Bosnia was OK because no one died. So is your position that war is only legitimate if no one dies? Have you ever looked up the word war in the dictionary? By your reasoning US involvement in WWII was wrong because Americans died.

And you also think that Bosnia should be a model? So even though the US violated the UN Security Council in Bosnia you're OK with that? The fact that Kosovo is still 10 years later disfunctional and run by thugs is OK with you? The fact that European companies bought up Serbian banks and industrial sites is OK with you? Isn't all that a bit inconsistant on your part?

You also imply that the Iraq war was wrong because of past US relations with Saddam. But the fact the Cold War was in full bloom doesn't work into your consideration? Is your position that because the US supported a bad regime in the past that they are now wrong to try to undo that mistake? It seems like a bizarre position to take.

Concerning WMD you say that I am right in that everyone thought he had them. So why did you earlier use that as a reason to say that the war was wrong? How can you use that as a point of criticism when you admit that everyone believed it? Seriously?

Anonymous said...

He had WMD for over 20 years or so we thought but he was not a THREAT to us.Just because he had WMD did not make him a threat to us all of a sudden. That is the reason we went to war at such a great cost in blood and treasure. If I knew at the time he was not a threat to us why didn’t the govt. I guess it was a coincidence that Saddam became a great threat after Bin Laden escaped. No links but the threat was hyped and it had to be done immediately, no time for inspections. As far as being a isolationist, hate companies making money or not being for WWll because Americans died that is all ridiculous. It seems going to absolute extremes is the hallmark of the extreme right. Believe it or not sometimes war is necessary like WWll obviously. Afghanistan was a necessary war but we screwed it up by not putting enough troops in to do the job. (money and troops were diverted to get ready for Iraq). And we had to rely on the Northern Alliance to do the dirty work because we were to worried about casualties. Unfortunately we don’t worry about that as much in Iraq. We used over 100,000 more troops for Iraq than Afghanistan. Had we used that many troops in Afghanistan we would have gotten Bin Laden. Iraq was a war of choice not necessity (no threat). The cold war is not why we supported Saddam it was because we hated Iran (hostage crisis). Saddam started the war with Iran with our support. So you think we are at war to make up for the fact that we supported him in the past to make up for a past mistake that is a little Polly Anna isn’t it. So Bosnia is not perfect like the rest of the world. It is a good thing we don’t own it and have to control it. But we did stop an active genocide and did not have to keep 150.000 troops for who knows how long. I guess you think we did it out of the goodness of our heart. No but it was a just cause unlike Iraq unless you think the Iraq war was simply a mistake and we really thought he could harm us. (no terror links and even if he had wmd he had them from the 80s but in 2003 he became a threat)

Dana said...

Well all I can see is that you seem to have totally supported Bosnia and you seem to have been totally against Iraq.

Bosnia is OK because 150,000 were killed while in Iraq 500,000 doesn't seem to interest you. Hey if it makes sense to you.

Anyways man you're still all over the place. First Bosnia is a model and now your grateful that you don't own it. Well unfortunately for those poor suckers they are blessed to be controlled by the UN. Of course that means reintroducing the slave trade, child sex workers, etc... you know all the things the UN is good at.

I just love how you criticize the US for using too many Afgani troops while at the same time complaining that too many troops are in Iraq. John Kerry made himself out to be a total ass on that one too. Hindsight is twenty/twenty and being an armchair quarterback is the easiest job in the world. You're kind of going on like Kerry did in how he had a plan to capture bin Laden and bring the troops home from Iraq. Of course it was too TOP SECRET to let anyone know about it.

It is also amusing how you are so concerned about 'blood and treasure' but now you wanted more men and equipment to go after bin Laden. Any contradiction there? What about the poor soldiers you claim to care so much about? What if they get frostbite? Oh the horror! What about the evil companies that will benefit by sending more troops to Afganistan? Rotten airlines.

And if you think I'm going to extremes on some things then sorry. But if you hold something up as a basis for your belief system then it is fair game.

Anyways since you won't stick to one line of thought answer this: Based on your reasons for opposing the war in Iraq please explain to me your reasons for supporting the wars in Bosnia under Clinton and Germany during WWII.

Anonymous said...

Why are we in Iraq? Seriously?

Dana said...

Well I'm not sure why you won't answer my question but since I apparently take this more seriously than you do I'll kindly answer your's.

The first point I would make is that we are not in Iraq. I am obviously Canadian and Canada doesn't officially have any troops in Iraq.

But in addressing an American I would say that whatever your motives may be, if you intend to put an end to the reign of Saddam then I won't stand in your way. As you mentioned at various times, whether Saddam was a direct threat to you is debateable. Whether the war will lead to greater security over the long term is debateable. Only history will answer those questions.

As a Canadian, I could care less whether the US removed Saddam or not. All I am sure of is that if the American people support a war against his regime I am not going to make up stupid and contradictory reasons to oppose it. Bush is not Hitler. Neither is he a facist. If you disagree with American policies then so be it.

Now if the US decided to invade Sweden then I would probably jump up and say whoa! What the hell are you doing?

But that doesn't apply in this case. I'll shed no tears over what the US has done in the Middle East. If the US accepts the responsibility then congratulations to them. America will take the credit or deserve the blame and that is a responsibility that they must burden.

But if they accept that burden, which they obviously have, I am not going to act like a scared little child when those with convictions do what I am not able to do.

Does American make mistakes. Of course they do. But they also accept responsibilities like no other nation on earth. When people suffer somewhere in the world they always look to one nation to help them. That nation is not France. Nor Russia. Nor China. Nor Germany.

You seem to believe that the war was only about oil. Well if that is the case it would have been much easier to just sign an agreement with Saddam to stop US military actions in exchange for discounted oil. That of course would be too obvious and wouldn't fit in with your narrative.

In short I have more reason to believe that American interests and actions are based on principle than not.

And if you are asking me why the US is in Iraq then in the simpliest manner I would answer it this way: After 9/11 the US had to smash something and unfortunately Iraq was sitting there with a big bulls-eye on itself. It is kind of the mentality of convincing your enemies that you are crazier than they are.

As well, the status quo that you were obviously so fond of was not leading to long term stability. Proping up incompetent dictators was not in the long term interests of the US when these countries deflected criticism of themselves onto the US and Israel. Something new had to be tried and this is certainly providing more hope for a better future that 50 years of your blessed 'stability' ever did.

Anonymous said...

I now see the light but first a couple of points. I guess you don’t actually read what I have written but that makes it easier for you. While I support helping when possible (Bosnia) I don’t believe the U.S. should do what you seam to want and completely take over instead of helping and letting them determine their on path even if it is ugly there are horrible things happening all over the world so take it all over and fix it but then again you are not paying for it.

How you see a contradiction in supporting Afgan war and not Iraq is simply amazing. Again Iraq was a choice and a bad one. But once you jump out of the plane you can not go back and have to see it through to the end. Obviously . One more time the Afgan war was to get the person responsible for 9/11. It had to be done. Iraq was never a threat to us (known beforehand) and was a choice. If the govt. had said “we are going to take over Iraq (a secular country) democratize and change the middle east to secure future oil and allies. That is legitimate and the real reason we went . It is wrong but debatable and the people would not go for it which is why Iraq became a immediate threat. No time to check out the contradictory evidence about the threat Saddam posed.

I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle. AND I HAVE NEVER CALLED MY PRESIDENT HITLER OUR A FACIST. Classic extreme right rhetoric using extreme left rhetoric. I love my country and I hate to see it falling. Not long ago being an American meant something to the rest of the world. No longer. AGAIN if our country is at risk there is no cost to high to pay in blood or treasure to protect us but that is not the case in Iraq.

So you don’t care what the U.S does in the middle east and will shed no tears. Your compassion is overwhelming. The first post, your words questioning my compassion. Hypocrisy?

So you seem to know the U.S made a mistake but it is okay with you because you are not suffering the Economic, political and social consequences. You are not watching police and fire cutting programs to keep the same level on the streets. You are not watching schools close and still have to cut sports, counselors and music. Mistakes cost a lot of money the cuts in services for the richest country in the world is incredible. (I could go on and on) The majority is now against it.

Mistaken war -$300,000,000,000 +
Not listening to military leadership-15,000 U.S. dead and wounded (no tears for Iraqi’s right)
Being a cheerleader from the stands - priceless

By the way something just had to be tried you say . Your country rightfully did not get involved. How many Dead U.S Soldiers did you know. I hope things work but we have made to many mistakes since our mistake to go to war.

Dana said...

Dude please don't tell me I'm a hipocrit because I supported the war even though my country didn't take part. Contrary to what you may think I am not the Prime Minister and my ability to determine what military actions my country takes is somewhat limited. Stinking democracy!

Anyways, you keep returning to the same old stuff. As well, at no point did I say that you personally called Bush a facist or the reincarnation of Hitler.

You are though claiming that he lied and that the only reason for the war was oil. You also implyed earlier that he lied about WMD. That is a pretty strong claim to make without any evidence.

The WMD bit you admit was a bit much but you won't let the oil thing go away. Well if it was all about oil you didn't address the point I made about just cutting a deal with Saddam. Wouldn't hit have been politically easier to just offer Saddam some slack in exchange for some juicy contracts for Haliburton? Please let me know why you don't bring this into your calculations.

As well, what proof of theft of Iraqi oil do you have? No Iraqi government officials have claimed this. The oil money and accounting procedures are transparent so why haven't you produced some evidence supporting your claim?

And if the war was all about oil then why the hell am I paying so much for gas? G.W. must be a bigger idiot than even you take him for.

Heck if G.W. was going to invade a country for oil why didn't he just invade Alberta? It would have been a hell of a lot easier. Less travel. Fewer jihadists.

And I guess I should ask how exactly invading Iraq makes oil any cheaper? Even if Saddam was selling it to France or China, that would reduce demand from other sources and the price would still remain constant.

Oil, oil, oil. Pathetic, pathetic, pathetic.

Anonymous said...

So you don’t care what the U.S does in the middle east and will shed no tears. Your compassion is overwhelming. The first post with your words questioning my compassion. Hypocrisy? I typed it again because you did not get it the first time. COMPASSION NOT SUPPORT FOR THE WAR. You questioned mine but later don’t care what happens there. Probably because you have no personal stake in it.
I will type this AGAIN because you missed this also: I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.

IN YOUR POST: “Bush is not Hitler. Neither is he a facist.”

It is still just extreme right rhetoric from extreme left rhetoric why did you bring it up except to show your extremism and try to paint me as an extremist because some other extremist said it . It was not me.

IN YOUR POST: “Heck if G.W. was going to invade a country for oil why didn't he just invade Alberta? It would have been a hell of a lot easier.”
When did Alberta become a country or have the second largest proven reserves in the world. And yes pointing this out to you is just as ridiculous as the point you are making.

AGAIN from my last post
I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.
I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.
I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.
Read my last post again please you seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

Anonymous said...

So you don’t care what the U.S does in the middle east and will shed no tears. Your compassion is overwhelming. The first post with your words questioning my compassion. Hypocrisy? I typed it again because you did not get it the first time. COMPASSION NOT SUPPORT FOR THE WAR. You questioned mine but later don’t care what happens there. Probably because you have no personal stake in it.
I will type this AGAIN because you missed this also: I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.

IN YOUR POST: Bush is not Hitler. Neither is he a facist.

It is still just extreme right rhetoric from extreme left rhetoric why did you bring it up except to show your extremism and try to paint me as an extremist because some other extremist said it . It was not me.
Once more
I did not say oil was the only reason but is part of the puzzle.
Read my last post again please you seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

Dana said...

Well I've asked more questions here than I care to remember and not once have you given a thoughtful response to any of them.

You make a point. I ask you to clarify or quantify the point and you simply move on to the next point.

You never answer a question and then you start going on about my 'extreme right' rhectoric.

Well I'm sorry if it bothers you so much but you still haven't answered any of my freaking questions!

I've heard every point you have made a thousand times and you keep spewing them out like they are brilliant insights that only the gifted could put together. They aren't.

I've asked straightforward questions hoping you would provide me with something I haven't heard before. I ask these questions hoping you'll provide me with something useful to improve my understanding of the subject or your point of view.

Repeating the same crap over and over again, crap that I've seen reguritated all over the place, does not help me understand your point of view.

I asked you about why you wanted Iraq to be more like Bosnia. My understanding is that the Balkans are a bloody mess and that they are just waiting for the EU to go home before they start killing each other again. I don't understand why you would want Iraq to be like that. Are the Balkans in better shape than I perceive? What don't I understand about your comparison?

You've mentioned several times about your frustration with the 'extreme right'. Well sorry if I give you grief.

But the left doesn't help itself, and neither do you, by endlessly jumping from topic to topic without ever explaining anything.

That is why the Republicans won the last election. You don't like their view of the world? Well tell people why it is wrong. Explain your position. What would you do different? Spewing out endless contradictory complaints doesn't fool enough people.

The philosophy of the liberal left is in tatters. You, my dear friend, are not helping it any.

Dana said...

And before I put the kibosh on my involvement in this conversation, this puzzle you seem to be putting together for my simpleton little brain is about as screwed up a puzzle as I've ever seen.

I've got a cool puzzle too that shows I'm a direct descendant of the Egyptian sun god and that I cause the cycles of the sun using a death ray developed by Haliburton.

Anonymous said...

I am looking for a serious question but it seems to be just a rant.
So anyone not for the war in Iraq is the liberal left? I guess I better change my party.
I guess I was not clear I was against the war in Iraq can you hear me know? Even you say it was a mistake but don’t care what happens in the middle east (your words). Bosnia was for a stated purpose and we did not take over the country to shape how we want. So much for sovereign nations to chose their path. And yes AGAIN there is ugliness all over the world but by your logic we should take over the world and shape it until it is perfect like us . Right? Hey why not. You do not have to pay in any form. How many U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq did you say you know? Not that it really matters but I doubt you have a personal stake in this in any form.? How much is it costing you and your country? And in what form?

Cheerleading from the stands-Priceless

Dana said...

Can you please clarify where exactly I claimed that the Iraq war was a mistake. You state "Even you say it was a mistake..." and unfortunately I don't quite remember making such a statement.

Thanks.

R said...

This is part of your response to my question “Why are we in Iraq”

From Your Post-- "I'll shed no tears over what the US has done in the Middle East. If the US accepts the responsibility then congratulations to them. America will take the credit or deserve the blame and that is a responsibility that they must burden.”
“Does American make mistakes. Of course they do. But they also accept responsibilities like no other nation on earth.”

Now maybe you were talking about other mistakes. But I thought you were trying to answer my question but I guess you were not answering the question or were you. Maybe you could explain. And then maybe you could answer the questions I asked a couple of times.
“How many U.S. soldiers fighting in Iraq did you say you know? Not that it really matters but I doubt you have a personal stake in this in any form.? How much is it costing you and your country? And in what form? “ Thank You